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Post by on Sept 26, 2005 18:50:25 GMT -1
This is a fairly controversial topic.... The Basic FactsSame sex marriages are only legal nationwide in four countried in the world; Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands, and Spain. Many other countries, including Britain, offer a similar legislation and legal staus as marriage to same sex couples, although it is not considered marriage. Many American states have banned same sex marriage outright, and several ave banned any sort of legal staus similar to marriage for same sex couples. The ControversyShould Same-sex couples be granted the same rights as opposite sex couples, and be allowed to be 'legally' married? Is refusing to let gay couples marry discrimination? Are same-sex realtionships morally right? Some Factsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-Sex_MarriageWhat do you think?
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Post by Lavita on Sept 26, 2005 20:06:51 GMT -1
its discrimination and a denial to stop it. People have different sexual orientations, and forbidding same-sex marriages is like isolating the people because of something they cant control
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Post by leriamontenegro on Oct 17, 2005 1:37:42 GMT -1
I think people are scared of different.
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Post by Rosie on Oct 19, 2005 21:51:56 GMT -1
yes. If two people share a bond, then it shouldn't matter worth a heck if they're homo or heterosexual. They are morally right because love should not be limited and they should have the same rights as any husband and wife. Just because all the high and mighty people are straight doesn't mean that America has to follow in their example. *shudders* I'm getting scared just imagining a world of Bush clones.
Rosie
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Post by leriamontenegro on Oct 20, 2005 19:47:46 GMT -1
i get scared too of the thought of a world full of bush clones. i know some very nice gay people. i think that it's dumb that we have to be all like anti this and anti that in the us
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Post by Rosie on Oct 24, 2005 21:04:19 GMT -1
yes, that's a good way to put it. Americans are scared of things they don't understand and therefore must be anti- this and anti- that.
rosie
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Post by Rosie on Oct 24, 2005 21:05:30 GMT -1
And that proves my point with a whole bunch of the things I use against bush... He's scared of different and therefore tries to make everything like him so that he's not scared anymore.
rosie
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Post by [giulietta-off dreaming] on Oct 24, 2005 22:38:07 GMT -1
Yes, I agree with all of you. Telling people that gay marriage isn't allowed is stupid-It's telling them to change their own natures. And that's something people just don't do. You can't expect the world to change to fit your taste. You just have to live with the people you don't like. Ignore them, do whatever, but don't expect them to change their natures to suit you.
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Post by belladonna on Jan 20, 2006 14:44:10 GMT -1
i agree too with all of you. I mean, here in the Netherlands same-sex marriages are allowed. And no-one has a problem with that. I actually think it 'integrates' gay people more in society. for example, there are a couple of gay people at my school, but they aren't discriminated or something like that. It doesn't matter anymore to many people if you're gay or heterosexual.
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Post by on Jan 20, 2006 17:12:43 GMT -1
Seeing as you all seem fairly united on this front, I'll throw in something hopefully more... debatable.
What do you think of homsexuality and christianity? What do you take on variouse churches differing stances? The bible - the inspired word of god, to a certain degree, condemms homsexuality. I don't know how many of you know the bible well, but what do you think of it - and particuarly what paul says?
Do you think that society is always right? Society dictates our morals - is society right? Should the inspired word of god be altered - because of course, we know better now, right? Should religions be forced to change for society?
I am an almost christian. I've been brought up as a liberal christian, that is, I find that science and the bible are not mutally exclusive, and yet at the same time, I find it very hard to understand certain parts of the bible, and work out that they mean. I've gone back to the hewbrew, and looked at variouse hebrew translations for several passages, and I'm still confused.
Like it or not, peoples morals tend to be instructed by society. Society dictates what is right and what is wrong - subversivly, but it is enforced in everything we see, hear, do, watch - what is right and what is wrong tends not to be a part of our minds, but a message that is enforced everyday since we are born.
But is it right? There have been times in our history when racism has been seen as right, when slavery has been seen as right. How now, do we know whether something is morally right or not? How do we know whether racism and slavery are infact right, when our measure of morality comes from the same place that either condemns or exalts it?
I'm getting way off target, into deep philosophy here, but I'm trying to provoke you. What do you think? Christianity and homosexuality? Society and Morality?
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Post by Rosie on Jan 21, 2006 20:19:19 GMT -1
oh my. anni has come back with a flourish. okay, let me think. been doing too much thinking this saturday, but oh well.
the bible invokes different feelings for me. it states good principles, but at the same time, it's all some dude's idea, and the women are good for nothing except carrying on the family name. that to me just shouts prejudism. once it was my mission to read the bible. i got to a part where a man and his two daughters were the only survivors in the family, so the daughters got their father drunk and then got themselves pregnant by him to carry on the family name. it disgusted me that that was all women were for. anyways, if the bible, if people were so wrong in that aspect, who says they were right about homosexuality? or even what makes people shout for intelligent design, how do we know that that is right?
someone ponder that.
rosie
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Post by [giulietta-off dreaming] on Jan 22, 2006 0:55:21 GMT -1
I am not familiar with the bible at all as I have been raised an aethyist. Could someone fill me in?
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Post by Rosie on Jan 22, 2006 21:42:46 GMT -1
the bible divided into the old testament and the new testement. (could someone tell me how that is spelled?) both are divided into different books. the old testement is basically old hebrew legends, that some people swear are history, which i find kinda stupid. the story of adam and eve is in the book of genesis, all the creation stuff that makes people clamor about intelligent design. there's also stories about noah and the ark, the stories about when the jews were slaves in egypt and moses delivered them. all very old, handed down by word of mouth until someone decided to write them down. the qua-ran, the islamic "bible" and the jewish book (forgot what it's called) i think both have the old testement in them.
the new testement is supposed to be more accurate. it was written after the birth of christ, an the first few books are matthew, mark, luke, and john, i think. they tell about the first christmas and all sorts of stuff.
then there's the psalms, which we sing in church (I'm catholic--- but i don't agree with the church in many issues! *grumbles- a bunch of pompous old men*)
but i'm certainly not an expert on the bible- i have realist and occasionally democratic views on many issues. i don't really enjoy the bible but it's part of my religion and there are several wonderful readings in it, in the midst of all the rest.
rosie
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Post by on Jan 23, 2006 13:55:26 GMT -1
Pretty much what rosie said.
There's the old testemant - the Jewish story. It contains creation, and the story of israel. It contains books of phrophecy, the psalms, Song of Songs...
Jewish people regard it as their holy scriptures.It's far more debatable and confusing than the new testemant, and A lot of christians tend to stick more to the new testemant - Jesus said he came to abolish the law.
(by which he meant that to get to heaven, people no longer had to follow all the rules in the old testemant, they just had to love God, and admit they had sinned and ask for redemption. They no longer had to sacrifice lambs, or stick to every law - they had to place their trust in god, and ask him what was right and wrong in the circumstances, and place their fiath in him.)
In the new testemant, there are the four gospels, which are 4 different accounts of the life of christ. There are the letters and the writings of many major early christians, and the book of revelations.
The difficulty with the bible is that there's so much of it. And you have to be able to tell what is:
a) Metaphorical. Like saying 'the earth is firmly fixed, it cannot be moved.' It does not mean that the earth literally stands still in the sky, it means that the earth... exists. It stays there. God has created it, and he likes it, and he's stuck it in the solar system, and... it's not going to canish any time soon without warning. It exits.
b)In context of the time. For instance, In a letter to one of the churches (I think it's timothy, but I'm guessing - my memory aint that good) Paul said that it is disrespectful for women to speak in church, and should not speak aloud in church, but If they have any questions, ask their husbands at home. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist.
I can see rosie combusting over this verse, so let me explain. At that time, women had absolutly no education whatsoever. Well, very little. If they spoke aloud in church, they would, most of the time, have no idea what they were saying. They would embarrass themselves, and everyone around them, and waste time. Because they had never been taught, and they probably wouldn't have been able to understand many things, because of their lack of education. By saying that they must ask their husbands at home if they had any questions, Paul was simply being practical, and saying that the church should advise women to speak to their husbands, who would be able to explain things to them properly and lovingly, and in doing so, educate their wives, so their wives could begin to attain the knowledge that their husbands held.
Besides, Jesus said that 'we are all one. man and woman, genetile and jew, slave and free.'
There are no distinctions between us in God's eyes - race, sex, waleth - they don't matter to god. He doesn't care about our gender. We are all equal.
c) and what the bible is saying literally. And we should take at face value. Trying to work out the differences in the bible is what has lead to the formation of so many different churches. It's very hard to try and work out the bible - and it doesn't help that in ancient hebrew, there seem to be about 4 words for each english one. Such as Love. In hewbrew, there are 5 words for love, each with a different meaning - storgĂȘ, philia, agapĂȘ, eros and ahava.
Paul, when discussing homsexuality, instead of using many of the words exisitng at the time, made up his own, based on them. And we don't know whether we have to take his words in context, or whether we have to think abiout the other words he uses, and the other things he says - it's a VERY confusing subject.
Very Very Very.
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Post by Rosie on Jan 23, 2006 22:03:22 GMT -1
ah, anni, you know me oh too well. yes, the bible is very confusing.
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Post by on Jan 24, 2006 20:58:17 GMT -1
it is indeed. It's caused so many headaches. Like thers this one verse, in genisis, which talks about the 'sons of god' coming down from heaven and having sex only with the beautiful women. The women them gave birth to giants and dragons and - greek mythology creatures. It's completely WTF? inducing...
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Post by Rosie on Jan 25, 2006 0:11:18 GMT -1
whacked. the old testament is actually a lot of old legends borrowed from other cultures. I know for a fact that there are very similar stories about a flood and an ark in both greek and mesopotamian mythology, and other different stuff. it's actually rather interesting, noting which culture some of the stories originally came from.
roise
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Post by [giulietta-off dreaming] on Jan 25, 2006 1:03:14 GMT -1
*confused* yep. I agree, from what I've heard...
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Post by Rosie on Jan 25, 2006 20:16:57 GMT -1
This isn't much of a debating chamber because we all basically agree on every topic brought up.
rosie
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Post by on Jan 26, 2006 18:21:03 GMT -1
Ok rosie, tell me. Do you belive in human nature. Do you belive that there is something that makes us findamentally different from animals - a sense of morality, doing the right thing. Do you belive that that is inbulit, and that it is what makes us human? Or, do you belive that Morality is a set of rules we are conditioned to accept from the moment we are old enough to understand, that it is not so much a part of us, the 'essense of humanity' as just something that is enforced in every thought, every action, every word we say?
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